JONATHAN DIDN''T UNDERSTAND THAT CORRUPTION IS WRONGDOING - SAGAY (PART 2)

FORMER PRESIDENT JONATHAN

Those who are corrupt are very powerful people. We are talking of people who are sitting atop billions of dollars, not just naira; and money is power. Thus, they will fight back and this is what they have done. There is no subterfuge they have not yet devised. First, they accused Buhari of selecting them out and my answer is that it doesn't matter if you are selected. If you are innocent, you are innocent and there is nothing anybody can do to you. It is only someone who knows he is guilty that begins to cry out and try to intimidate the government from trying to find out what happened. What happened to all the billions of dollars that disappeared? The government should just look at it and let it go? Buhari, while addressing the Nigerian Bar Association, was the one who said it is the greatest crime against humanity to steal so much money that leaves a whole country grounded and a few of them impossibly wealthy that for the next 100 generations, they can be spending without working. Our patrimony? Unacceptable!
If corruption is seen as the greatest crime against humanity, do you think it should attract capital punishment like it does in China?
No, I think that would be too extreme. My attitude is that if you do not directly kill a human being, or do something with the intention that a human being will die, you should not be subjected to capital punishment, because once life is taken away, we cannot bring it back and we cannot create life. I think severe imprisonment coupled with recovery of stolen wealth is enough for now.
Obasanjo said Jonathan's performance would affect the likelihood of another Niger Delta indigene emerging as president. Do you share this view?
I am also a Niger Delta indigene and I always felt the way Obasanjo was feeling that if in future any of us brings out his head and says, 'I want to contest the presidency,' they will say, 'Ah! But we gave you the opportunity; see how lousy, dismal and devastating failure you were. Why do you think we should give you another chance?' That issue will arise in future, there is no question about it. The first time somebody came from our zone and was given power, he just wasted it in such a dismal and disastrous manner. It is unbelievable what happened under Jonathan. If people use it against the Niger Delta people, I can understand, although it would not be a logical thing because the next person from the Niger Delta will not be the same. But I can understand that sentiment. What happened was a disgrace to all of us.
Are you saying his performance will haunt all the people of the Niger Delta, including those with outstanding track records?
Yes, it will definitely haunt us, but it is our job now to convince Nigerians that every Niger Delta person is not the same. Let me give you an example which has nothing to do with corruption. It takes a Buhari from Daura in Katsina State to decide to organise money and expertise to go to Ogoniland, which is part of Niger Delta, to recover that land from the destruction that the oil companies have subjected it to. There was a Niger Delta indigene there; for six years, Jonathan was in power. What did he do? His mind did not go there. That is why I always say I am not bothered about where whoever is ruling comes from. I never supported Jonathan because he came from the Niger Delta; that is not important. What is important is the quality of the man, what he is doing, what his programme is for my part of the country. If he comes from Sokoto State, I don't care. What programmes do you have for my people in the Niger Delta? If the programme is good, you can rule forever as far as I am concerned. I don't want my brother in the village to go there (presidency) and steal all the patrimony of the country and neglect that village; then I say, 'Yes, he is my brother.' That's of no use.
But Jonathan's loyalists are pointing at the Federal University, Otuoke, as one of his notable contributions to the Niger Delta during his presidency...
In fact, for me, that is a negative in two ways. Jonathan created nine new federal universities, when the existing ones were crying for lack of care, finance, facilities and so on. For me, that is a sign of very poor leadership. It just shows he did not understand what governance is about. One doesn't just create things that he cannot support. That is a big mistake. Secondly, you want to look at leaders, who are not mentally matured in terms of politics; look at what they do with various institutions and other things they create. When you see a man putting something in his village, you know that he is mentally underdeveloped as a politician. It shows he is still a local, narrow-minded individual, who has not developed at all. He is a village man put in a central position. Let's look at our great leaders; where did (Chief Obafemi) Awolowo put the university he created? In Ife, Osun State, not in Ogun State, where he came from. Where did Sir Ahmadu Bello put the university he created? In Zaria, Kaduna State, rather than his hometown in Sokoto. Where did Dr. Nnadmi Azikiwe put the university he created? In Nsukka, Enugu. That is the difference! I always tell people that those people of the First Republic are the greatest we've ever had. Since then, we've had diminishing returns, smaller people-not smaller in size, but in mentality, culture, civilisation, values and every other way. We are almost at the bottom.
Should this philosophy be applied to the recent appointments made by the President, which is viewed as lopsided?
The South-Eastern people are complaining bitterly. What I will tell them is 'Be calm, what if an Igbo person is given a ministry? It is just one family that is enjoying'. Rather, look out for the programme of the government; what plans do they have for south-eastern Nigeria? Once they have good plans, whoever is appointed to any position is irrelevant.
For example, does Buhari have plans for the Second Niger Bridge? What plans does he have for erosion and all those bad roads in the South-East that connect other parts of the country? Those are the areas where they should be tackling him, not who he is appointing. If they keep on pressing and he now appoints south-eastern ministers and officials in various other places and those major things affecting their lives are not tackled at the end of the day, then the appointments would be of no use and will make no impact; they will not improve on the South-East or the standard of living there. It will just be one family that is living a rarefied life for four years and then they'll go back to the people. What's the point? It is misplaced priority that I am seeing in this country when people talk of 'This man didn't come from my side' and 'That fellow didn't come from my village'. For me, that is immaturity and mental underdevelopment, politically.
But do you think the South-East, which doesn't have a single person in the current government, will be satisfied with your explanation?
People will be appointed eventually. But that is not the priority; they should take their programmes to the government. They have powerful leaders; they should get together and ask each other, 'What does the South-East want from this government?' Not appointment of people. Go there and present programmes and hear what the President says. That is where you will now know whether he has good plans for the South-East or not. Not who is appointed to various positions; for me, that is very secondary. In the light of this, I know (recently appointed Group Managing Director, Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation, Dr. Ibe) Kachikwu is technically from Delta State, but he is an Igbo man. He's controlling an organisation that is responsible for 90 per cent of the wealth of this country. Whether or not he is west of the Niger River does not make any difference; he is still an Igbo man. I think we should take that into consideration.

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